Good Monday to you and yours! Today, we’re talking to North Carolina’s own Phonte Coleman — one of the most respected MCs on the planet, the longtime co-host of Questlove’s old podcast Questlove Supreme, this is a man who knows how to tell stories. I’m gonna be honest, I didn’t realize we had been on the phone for an hour and a half until I looked down at the end: we talk about everything from Oscar movies to Next Friday, and go deep on what it takes to be the subject of (and making) a documentary.
What’s the last movie you watched?
This isn’t the last one I watched, but the last one that left an impact on me was Bugonia, with Yorgos Lanthimos and Emma Stone. This kinda last trilogy that they’ve been on, they’re locked in. Poor Things, I walked into that blind, didn’t know what that was about, didn’t watch the trailer and I was like “what the fuck did I just watch, that shit was crazy.” It was dope. Kinds of Kindness, with Emma, Willem Defoe, your boy Jesse Plemons — that’s not everyday viewing.
Right, it’s more vignettes, three stories that —
That kinda connect together at the end. It was okay, kinda weird. But then Bugonia, was full-fucking-freakout, and that was kinda dope.
Bugonia makes you feel like — or really, confirms — that people are dumb.
1000%! It was something where, when I read the premise of it — and I’m not spoiling anything for anyone reading — but [proceeds to spoil the whole thing]. I thought the ending was something very prescient.
It speaks to the times.
What’s a movie that’s always on TV?
Shawshank Redemption.
Do you stop everything and watch when you see it’s there?
Every time. I’m locked in. Andy Dufresne, fucking Red. It doesn’t matter where it is in the movie: the part where he’s breaking out, where the young Elvis-looking dude gets in there…I’ll watch it anytime, anywhere.
Would you say it’s your favorite movie?
Definitely not! (unintelligible, mostly yelling at me)
(laughing) I’m not trying to paint you in a corner! I’m sorry, I’m just asking questions!
It’s up there, it’s something I love to watch! But one of my favorite movies of all time is A Soldier’s Story. It’s cold-blooded. It’s from 1984, directed by Norman Jewison and based on a play. It’s basically about a Black sergeant who gets killed, and it’s a murder mystery. All the OGs are in it, but it’s early: early Denzel before he got his teeth fixed; Howard Rollins, he’s the lead; Adolph Caesar, he plays the sergeant. David Allan Grier is in it, early.
Playing a serious role.
Yea. Playing a serious role, but he’s still David Allan Grier so he can read the phone book and make you laugh. So it’s comical but it is a serious role. Herbie Hancock did the score. It’s a movie where, my uncle, he would watch it when I was a kid. And I was just happy like, “Yay! Black people in a movie!” But when I got older and get the themes of it, it’s just like, “Oh, shit.” So that’s in my top 5.
What’s a movie that would make for a good Halloween costume?
I don’t want to say nothing horror. That’s too easy. Next Friday — Pinky! I think Clifton Davis — Clifton Powell, Clifton Davis is a national treasure, he’s an OG, I don’t want to get my Cliftons mixed up. But Clifton Powell is my dude. I would watch Clifton Powell in anything, I stan the man’s entire catalog. His role as Pinky is Oscar-worthy, triple-platinum.
What’s a movie character that you think you really understand?
Thanos.
Wow.
(laughs) I get it! And let me just say, just because I say, “I understand him” doesn’t mean I agree with him. The End Game, when he just fucks everybody up and then went and just sat on his goddamn porch? Like, (exhales), man, listen, that shit be real as fuck. I just want some peace and quiet. I tried to tell y’all leave me the fuck alone and you didn’t, so now I got this infinity gauntlet about to handle y’all motherfuckers. I understood what drove him — I didn’t agree with his methods but I sure understood. Sometimes you wanna be left the fuck alone.
Is it hard to make a documentary about yourself?
Man. Hardest thing I’ve had to do in my life.
What made it so hard?
Our director Holland; Yoh, our writer; me and Pooh — this was the first film we had ever done to this scale. I think the hardest thing, we learned, was you have to decide what your story is gonna be. And with documentary, I’ve talked to a lot of people and you’ll hear these horror stories where they say, “We shot for three years and then we sat down to cut it and we realized we didn’t have a story.” And so that was in the back of my head. The hardest thing is deciding what story you’re going to tell. If you’re telling the story about a rap group or even about anybody, if I’m telling the Jeff and Eric story, I can say, “Okay, there’s Jeff and Eric. Growing up, they’re in New York. And there’s the hip-hop side, and there’s the podcast side.
Right, and there’s the actual life side.
And there’s the “being two Jewish guys in hip-hop culture and what that looks like.” And any one of those topics can be an hour-long documentary by itself. And so for us, all these people were like, “Oh, I wanted to hear about studio stuff and —” It’s like, that’s not the story we’re telling. If you want to make that, go ahead, but that’s not the story we’re telling. This is not a podcast where we’re going deep on the night we made “Speed.”
I found that people want what they want until they realize there are other possibilities.
Yeah, bro. And then on the emotional side, I had to relive a lot of things. What was beautiful about it was, we were able to look back on those things with a newfound maturity, having had that experience — and being able to look at things with multiple perspectives. Like, “Okay, yeah, I could see why I fucked up on that, I was wrong on that.” Me and Pooh, we were like, if there’s not parts of this documentary that made us uncomfortable then we made a shitty documentary.
Did you ever feel like you were too close to the story, and thank God for an outsider like Holland or Yoh to sift through everything?
Absolutely! That’s necessary. Pooh and I, we were just like, “We’re gonna give you the information — this is what happened, these are the players involved. Y’all tell us what y’all see. I felt it was important to have the, like you said, outsider or fly on the wall perspective — you can be the greatest heart surgeon in the world, you’re not gonna be able to operate on yourself.
That’s such an incredible line.
(laughs) And one last thing, Yoh and Holland were younger than us, so they had a really different context for our story. We knew they could catch some of the blind spots that Pooh and I probably wouldn’t. I think they did a phenomenal job.
What’s a movie you quote a lot?
This isn’t a movie, but I quote The Wire a lot, there’s a lot of game in there. But a movie? Black Dynamite — "But Black Dynamite, I sell drugs in the community!" That ran a whole summer for me. That’s with Michael Jai White and Tommy Davidson, it’s from 2009. Blaxploitation spoof, that movie is great. It brought so much joy into my life. The Color Purple, I feel like that’s another Black staple in my life. Coming to America — it’s the classics.
What’s a great North Carolina movie?
I feel like the quintessential one is Bull Durham.
Is that the best baseball movie, you think?
I don’t think so. I’m not a baseball fan, I’m not a sports fan, to be honest. But for me? My favorite baseball movie is Major League.
That’s what I would say, too!
Listen! The second one, they tried, it was eh. But the first one is classic. “Up your butt, Jobu!” Talk about movies you quote: “Fuck you, Jobu. I do it myself.” (laughs) Like, what? Pedro Cerrano! What? Come on, B!
Stay tuned for part 2, with Phonte next week. And enjoy our Cape Fear episode, today!